62 replies to this topic

[Lancer1997]

Good point, I did not stick with the point of your post. 

I tend to stay away from national poll topics because of my disdain for them.  I unintentionally became a thread crapper and will abstain from this one. 

To validate your points, however, can you state how you came to your conclusions and "points"?  I know that you watched the SLC-Ryan game and Poly-MV, have you been able to do so for the Ohio teams?  Or are you basing it on the competition within their respective state/region/etc.?
Thanks, and you need to make ot down here one day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Id like to make it out to Texas at some point, as long as I can find some people to go to a game with.

I saw MV play DLS in person, and then Poly and Los Al on TV.
I saw SLC play DR on TV.

I have not seen Colerain.

However,

-The fact Ohio has the best playoff system in America and Colerain is stomping through everyone, says something.

-Its been 7 years since a team was so dominating in Ohio, which is one of the best high school football states.

-SLC has had a couple fairly close games, whereas Colerain has not.

So while I havent seen them play, based on concha's opinions, whom I respect, and the litany of evidence, it seems Colerain has to be #1.

[Lamar'85]

I love seeing all this bantering back and forth about a "Fictitional Title" in which nobody will ever know the true #1 team because they do not play each other. I lived in Texas all my life (up until 3 years ago) and lived and breathed Texas High School Football and still do (Thank God for the internet). I now live in Georgia and try to follow Georgia High School Football but it hasn't taken hold of me like Texas football but I'm trying.

I did spend my past Friday and Saturday watching the Georgia semifinals in all classifications on Georgia Public Television (they do have a leg up on Texas in this regard) and must say the ballgames were "yawners" for the most part. I can only recall one close game (Buford 28 Dublin 24).

Not exactly sure why they play the semifinals in the Georgia Dome instead of holding all the state championship games there????

[concha]

CatFan has stated as such also. He knows far more than I about football and people whose analyses HE respects are also calling Colerain the best since the McKinley national poll champs of '97. They may be even better, as I don't think they dominated as Colerain has this year.

[PrepNation]

pied,

As always, I respect your opinion....as long as you give one.

I feel that I laid out an argument pretty clearly and concisively for Colerain to be #1. I asked for arguments to the contrary. Feel free to post why you think SLC would win. Your opinion will be, as awlays, respected.

I laid out my case and you make yours. I am still waiting for someone to post why SLC should be #1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lancer and Concha --

You have each laid out the excellent arguments that can be made for Colerain at No. 1 and the obvious question marks that surround SLC's defense. I agree with you that Colerain's defense has certainly been more impressive than SLC's night in and night out, and I think Colerain could very well give SLC a lot of trouble with its physical style of play.

That said, I don't think enough respect is being paid in this thread to SLC's schedule strength. The fact of the matter is Colerain does not play in a league any where as strong as SLC's district ... Moreoever, the bulk of the points surrendered by SLC during the regular season were second-half points allowed by its second-stringers after SLC had opened up a 35-0 lead. I think SLC's defense also made the play it needed to make to preserve last week's win over Abilene. (That might have been the mark of a defense that makes plays when it's called upon to do so ... or you could be right, it could be a portense of the downfall of the Dragons.)

Assuming the game is not played in the 30 degree, muck and mud of an Ohio November, I would pick both SLC and MV to beat Colerain. I think SLC and MV would have a tough job attempting to match up with and stop Colerain's power running attack. But conversely, Colerain has not seen a dynamic passing attack like SLC's this season and has not seen the kind of balanced offensive package and steady QB play that MV would bring to the table.

If the favored teams keep winning in the Texas 5A/II brackets, we'll likely soon get to see SLC match up with potentially both Lufkin and Katy again. Both teams are more defensively-minded and feature power running games on offense. If SLC can rise to the occassion and beat both of those teams, I think it will be an indication that SLC can beat teams that seem to be more physical.

All that said, I just don't see that it would be justified to drop either SLC or MV until they lose or at play poorly against an average or poor team. That has not happened.

[oldkatyplayer]

like i said in another post, there is no real quote number one team out there, i say let them have a national playoff system for all the high school state champs, then everyone can put to rest who is the best team in the land, i take any top team from texas to compete and probably win aganist anyone else in the country, as i have stated before, every state has there great teams, to me texas is one of the top states for high school football, and thats something i personally look forward to every year, one thing i really keep up with if i can between both of my jobs, as for waisting bandwidth, lighten up and i was messing around and joking as you could have telled.

go tigers!

[CatFan]

However,

-The fact Ohio has the best playoff system in America and Colerain is stomping through everyone, says something.

-Its been 7 years since a team was so dominating in Ohio, which is one of the best high school football states.

-SLC has had a couple fairly close games, whereas Colerain has not.

So while I havent seen them play, based on concha's opinions, whom I respect, and the litany of evidence, it seems Colerain has to be #1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lancer -

As an FYI, McKinley 1997 had much more trouble in the playoffs than Colerain has so far...In the regular season, McKinley beat IGGY 35-32...In the 2nd round of the playoffs McKinley beat Toledo Desales 25-22. In the state semis, McKinley beat IGGY 20-19, in a game that IGGY completely dominated for 3.5 quarters.

So far, Colerain has made a mockery of the OH playoffs, absolutely destroying everyone in their way.

It is a shame that things worked out the way they did as I dont see Colerain being challenged by the Pups in the state title game. Glenville handed the game to McKinley on a silver platter...IGGY, Eds, Fitch or Glenville would have all been a tougher matchup for Colerain, but the matchups didnt work out that way.

Colerain has yet to be tested by a team with good offensive team that can throw the ball and I just dont see McKinley doing much against the Card defense. At the end of the Glenville/McKinley game, Glenville was clearly the better team on the field and the Pups were tiring. To the Pups credit, they pulled off an INT to save the game, but if they get worn down against Glenville, Colerain should have even better luck.

At this point, I'd rank MV#1, Colerain #2 and SLC #3. MV has the best balance of all the team mentioned + they've played the most challenging schedule.

I've seen the Cards 2x on tape and look forward to seeing them in person this weekend...maybe that will be enough to change my mind, but for now I have them #2.

[Mr. Clean]

PrepNation: While we are on schedule strength, I will once again use this platform in a (probably vain ) attempt to set up Evangel for a Top 25 ranking when the Eagles secure the 5A state title in two weeks against West Monroe.

True, the three ECA losses don't look impressive staring back at you on paper, but if John Curtis is worthy of a Top 15 spot (playing in Louisiana 4A), then Evangel should considered if-and-when the Eagles take the championship in the Superdome.

I suggest that quite a few teams in the regional rankings, if not the Top 25, could easily go 0-3 versus the likes of Longview, Abilene, and Springdale.

Moreover, after starting 1-3, this ECA team has steadily, if not spectacularly, improved. After all, more attention is paid to how a team completes the year, as opposed to the initial weeks of the season.

Jamie, I rest my case (for this week).

[Lancer1997]

Lancer and Concha --

You have each laid out the excellent arguments that can be made for Colerain at No. 1 and the obvious question marks that surround SLC's defense. I agree with you that Colerain's defense has certainly been more impressive than SLC's night in and night out, and I think Colerain could very well give SLC a lot of trouble with its physical style of play.

That said, I don't think enough respect is being paid in this thread to SLC's schedule strength. The fact of the matter is Colerain does not play in a league any where as strong as SLC's district ... Moreoever, the bulk of the points surrendered by SLC during the regular season were second-half points allowed by its second-stringers after SLC had opened up a 35-0 lead. I think SLC's defense also made the play it needed to make to preserve last week's win over Abilene. (That might have been the mark of a defense that makes plays when it's called upon to do so ... or you could be right, it could be a portense of the downfall of the Dragons.)

Assuming the game is not played in the 30 degree, muck and mud of an Ohio November, I would pick both SLC and MV to beat Colerain. I think SLC and MV would have a tough job attempting to match up with and stop Colerain's power running attack. But conversely, Colerain has not seen a dynamic passing attack like SLC's this season and has not seen the kind of balanced offensive package and steady QB play that MV would bring to the table.

If the favored teams keep winning in the Texas 5A/II brackets, we'll likely soon get to see SLC match up with potentially both Lufkin and Katy again. Both teams are more defensively-minded and feature power running games on offense. If SLC can rise to the occassion and beat both of those teams, I think it will be an indication that SLC can beat teams that seem to be more physical. 

All that said, I just don't see that it would be justified to drop either SLC or MV until they lose or at play poorly against an average or poor team. That has not happened.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ill say this Jamie,

A smaller, and undertalented DLS was able to stymie the MV offense. Imagine what would happen with a much larger, faster Colerain D. DLS only lost by 3 with 12 seconds left in the game. Like I said MV is vastly overrated.

As far as SLC goes. I agree their SOS is tougher than Colerains at this point. But lets not forget the Ohio D1 bracket is not broken into 2 and features the very best teams in Ohio, whereas Texas has two separate divisions. IE- last season who was the 5A champ? Katy? or GPNS? Its conjecture whereas that will be decided in Ohio.

I think SLC's passing game would score maybe a couple TD's on the Colerain D, but given the way Katy beat SLC last season with a grind it out offense, I see Colerain able to accomplish something similar given that they have what I believe to be a team superior than las seasons Katy squad.

That said, it just seems your number one team should be dominating in all facets of the game. Colerain is the only team doing that.

[concha]

From Dave Campbell's Texas Football:

"In North Texas, the nation's top-ranked Dragons won their 26th consecutive regular-season game, 56-35 over Haltom, to improve to 6-0.

Missouri-bound QB Chase Daniel threw for 351 yards and Clint Renfro had eight catches for a whopping 236 yards and four TDs for Southlake Carroll. The Dragons scored on eight of their 13 possessions and finished with 548 yards of offense and 28 first downs.

Six of Daniel's first eight completions went to Renfro, who caught his third touchdown pass of the game with 11:22 remaining in the second quarter on a 48-yard strike to put Carroll up 28-7.

The quick-strike Dragons built a 14-0 lead less than four minutes into the game.

Surprising Haltom was led by the passing tandem of Quenton Thompson and Jermy Brent. Thompson had a career-high 243 yards by halftime and finished with 459 yards. Brent had 269 yards, including a juggling 64-yard catch late in the first half that cut Carroll's lead to 35-14.

Haltom's 35 points is the most Carroll has allowed this season. The Buffalos rolled up 545 yards of offense and 32 first downs.
After Brandon Hawkins intercepted a Daniel pass and returned it 53 yards to the Carroll 2, Thompson scored to make it 35-21 Carroll at halftime. "




This game happened well into the season (wekk 7) and Haltom finished the regular season 3-7. Colerain's toughest games weren't remotely this close.


And we are to believe that SLC's passing game and MV's "balanced attack" are going to light up a defense that never would have given up double-digits in a game if they left in the first string? There is NO evidence of this. None. Elder and Moeller averaged 34 points per game this season (not incl Colerain games). Centerville 37. In the four games they faced Colerain, they put up a whopping 12 points. TOTAL.

There is similarly no reason to believe that SLC's defense would stop Colerain's offense. I point to the Haltom City game as just one piece of evidence.

[PrepNation]

CatFan has stated as such also. He knows far more than I about football and people whose analyses HE respects are also calling Colerain the best since the McKinley national poll champs of '97. They may be even better, as I don't think they dominated as Colerain has this year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to add some perspective on McKinley in 1997 (i.e. running the table in Ohio) vs. running the table in Texas.

McKinley actually finished No. 2 in 1997 in our poll, with Hampton VA finishing No. 1 ... However, I had absolutely nothing to do with the poll back then (Doug Huff, now at Student Sports, compiled our poll then.) That said, I think McKinley was just as deserving as Hampton, if not more. But that's another argument.

My point is that there was not an undefeated Texas state champion in 5A back in 1997 ... Not that going undefeated in Texas 5A ensures a national championship, but it certainly is worth noting. The worst any undefeated Texas 5A team has finished in our poll since 1996 has been 8th -- and two finished No. 2 (one of whom was Midland Lee, which was No. 1 in the USA Today poll -- that was 1999, the last poll done by Huff at NPP.)

[Lancer1997]

If you see MV live you would agree, they are overrated if listed at #1, #2, and probably #3. #3 should go to Indy. MV may be #4, but seeing them live opens a lot of eyes.

They are nowhere remotely close to the 2001 Poly team, nor any of DLS teams in 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, or 2003.

In fact if last seasons DLS team had played this season MV team it would have been ugly, a la MV's defeat of Poly 41-14.

While I realize this argument usually is not credible (e.g. my team from 2003 can beat your team from 2004), it serves to illustrate that Cali HS Football is in a down year.

If you had seen Poly, and Los Al play, two teams who are credited for making MV's schedule seem so tough, you would all leave unimpressed.

[PrepNation]

PrepNation:  While we are on schedule strength, I will once again use this platform in a (probably vain ) attempt to set up Evangel for a Top 25 ranking when the Eagles secure the 5A state title in two weeks against West Monroe.

True, the three ECA losses don't look impressive staring back at you on paper, but if John Curtis is worthy of a Top 15 spot (playing in Louisiana 4A), then Evangel should considered if-and-when the Eagles take the championship in the Superdome.

I suggest that quite a few teams in the regional rankings, if not the Top 25, could easily go 0-3 versus the likes of Longview, Abilene, and Springdale. 

Moreover, after starting 1-3, this ECA team has steadily, if not spectacularly, improved.  After all, more attention is paid to how a team completes the year, as opposed to the initial weeks of the season.

Jamie, I rest my case (for this week).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If ECA does indeed win the 5A title, they will almost certainly get a regional ranking, but I don't know if a Top 25 ranking will be in the cards. We gave them their props in the preseason for the schedule they put together, but they only went 1-3 in those games and none of those opponents will be state champs in their respective states.

[pied]

So SLC is up 35-7 in the first half right? Forgive me if I don't get too worked up about a let up....

[Mr. Clean]

If ECA does indeed win the 5A title, they will almost certainly get a regional ranking, but I don't know if a Top 25 ranking will be in the cards. We gave them their props in the preseason for the schedule they put together, but they only went 1-3 in those games and none of those opponents will be state champs in their respective states.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough...Johnnie Cochran and I put together a pretty good argument, though, if I may say so myself.

[PrepNation]

Ill say this Jamie,

A smaller, and undertalented DLS was able to stymie the MV offense. Imagine what would happen with a much larger, faster Colerain D. DLS only lost by 3 with 12 seconds left in the game. Like I said MV is vastly overrated.

As far as SLC goes. I agree their SOS is tougher than Colerains at this point. But lets not forget the Ohio D1 bracket is not broken into 2 and features the very best teams in Ohio, whereas Texas has two separate divisions. IE- last season who was the 5A champ? Katy? or GPNS? Its conjecture whereas that will be decided in Ohio.

I think SLC's passing game would score maybe a couple TD's on the Colerain D, but given the way Katy beat SLC last season with a grind it out offense, I see Colerain able to accomplish something similar given that they have what I believe to be a team superior than las seasons Katy squad.

That said, it just seems your number one team should be dominating in all facets of the game. Colerain is the only team doing that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I said, you make a good argument for Colerain. Very good. I've seen both teams play multiple games on tape this year ... and it would be a very tough game to predict if they were to meet on a neutral field. (I don't agree with you on MV though).

SLC has a lot of work left before they can claim the national championship. They'll likely have to beat two regionally ranked (both are USA Today Top 25) and one more Top 15 team to get it done. We'll see what happens.

[Lancer1997]

So SLC is up 35-7 in the first half right?  Forgive me if I don't get too worked up about a let up....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep in mind Colerains reserves play most of their games too. However they probably get more playing time than SLC scrubs due to the fact COlerain doesnt average giving up 3 TD's a game.

[PrepNation]

If you see MV live you would agree, they are overrated if listed at #1, #2, and probably #3. #3 should go to Indy. MV may be #4, but seeing them live opens a lot of eyes.

They are nowhere remotely close to the 2001 Poly team, nor any of DLS teams in 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, or 2003.

In fact if last seasons DLS team had played this season MV team it would have been ugly, a la MV's defeat of Poly 41-14.

While I realize this argument usually is not credible (e.g. my team from 2003 can beat your team from 2004), it serves to illustrate that Cali HS Football is in a down year.

If you had seen Poly, and Los Al play, two teams who are credited  for making MV's schedule seem so tough, you would all leave unimpressed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did not see the MV-DLS game ... but I did see the MV games vs. Los Al and Poly and I was impressed. I also saw the Poly vs. Lakewood game.

From what I have seen, it's hard for me to say that MV is overrated and that it's a down year for Cali football. A great and spectacular year? No. But not a "down" year either.

[Lancer1997]

A great and spectacular year? No. But not a "down" year either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have high standards though out here, being used to DLS and all. I simply wanted to point out Cali does not have a "Great" team this season like many of the DLS squads (2003, 2001, 1999) in particular. Ironically the 1999 team did not win the mythcal national title, despite it being the best DLS team ever.

Anyway, I simply wanted to define that the best Cali team this season is an 8.5 ot of 10, compared to the DLS teams of the last 6 years, the Mater Dei teams of the 90's and the Poly teams of 1997 and 2001.

MV just isnt in that class. And it sounds more and more like Colerain is, so shouldnt they therefore be ahead of MV?

[PrepNation]

We have high standards though out here, being used to DLS and all. I simply wanted to point out Cali does not have a "Great" team this season like many of the DLS squads (2003, 2001, 1999) in particular. Ironically the 1999 team did not win the mythcal national title, despite it being the best DLS team ever.

Anyway, I simply wanted to define that the best Cali team this season is an 8.5 ot of 10, compared to the DLS teams of the last 6 years, the Mater Dei teams of the 90's and the Poly teams of 1997 and 2001.

MV just isnt in that class. And it sounds more and more like Colerain is, so shouldnt they therefore be ahead of MV?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps.

[rockinl]

If SLC beats both Lufkin AND Katy, then any argument for any other team being #1 will be moot. And I dont care what the score is. If SLC beats those 2, then nobody else is even close to being #1. Id put those 2 teams up against any Ohio, Ca., Fl., or any other states teams.

Lancer, I also believe that MV is overrated. By how much....I dont know. (I've seen them on TV)...and I also truly believe that if DLS was to play MV now, it would be over by the end of the 3rd quarter. But when you say that (paraphrasing) "if people could see MV play live, we'd leave unimpressed"....the same goes for Soutlake Carroll.....If you could see them play live, I think you'd leave very IMpressed. I've only seen one other predominantly HS passing offense that was better than SLC's....and that was the 1999 Evangel Eagles. While SLC may not have a dominating defense, what they will do is if you score 21, they'll score 35. If you score 35, they'll score 50, etc...