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Southlake Carroll and the #1 ranking


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#61 Lancer1997

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 11:07 AM

"No way, i don't think a ohio all-star team would shut them down. That is the stupidest comment i ever read on this forum."
There are diffferent ways to interpret "shut down". Would SLC score on Colerain?  Quite likely given their passing game, despite the fact that their rushing game would probably be useless.  I highly doubt they would get more than a couple of TDs though - even on a good day. And the Colerain offense just hasn't been slowed down by anyone, so there is no reason to believe that SLC's admittedly unspectacular defense would be able to do the job.

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Conch-

See my analysis of this subject on the Week 16 national poll thread. I broke it down as logically as I could.

#62 BringTheWood

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 05:00 PM

No one has ever ran through the Ohio D1 like Colerain since I've been alive.  Say what you will but Colerain has the best defense that I have seen in highschool.  They get pressure rushing only three against teams with Division 1 lineman.  That is unheard of in Ohio.  The level of competition in Ohio is second to no one.

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big whoop! 4a hebron can do that and they lost in the first round (even tough it was because of a lack of heart not talent)

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 06:42 PM

Longview does'nt hardly throw the ball.....

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What were there rushimg stats huh? lowest of the season. they did throw it pretty good and ask the LOBO faithfull they will be honest , we should have won the game but of coarse should of don't get far.

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 06:44 PM

I hope you weren't being serious with that comment because if you were smack yourself.

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I was being sarcastic like this who post has turned out to be!!!

#65 NorthBulldogs06

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:44 PM

Texas lost to ou 12-0.  a$m took ou to dang near OT.  Texas just got finished giving the aggies all they wanted.  At least in this scenario you have games to compare. 

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you forget that 47 players on Oklahoma's team are from texas compared to 26 that are from oklahoma so in reality OU is just another texas school

#66 PantherTom

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 09:53 PM

big whoop! 4a hebron can do that and they lost in the first round (even tough it was because of a lack of heart not talent)

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Its better to keep your mouth shut, than to open it and removel all doubt.:iamwithstupid:

#67 concha

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:11 PM

Please help my simple mind understand.


SLC is simply not a complete package. They score alot, but no more than Colerain. And, they give up points. Significant points. And not necessarily just to the best teams they play in that strong schedule of theirs.

But we are asked to believe that they would score big points on Colerain???
Keller and Fossil Ridge held them to 33 and 28 points, respectively: SLC's lowest point totals for the year. I look at the results for these two teams and can tell you categorically that their defenses are hugely outclassed by Colerain's. Jamie - can you possibly disagree with this??

So just how many points do we think SLC's offense could put up on Colerain in all seriousness? If Keller and Fossil Ridge can hold them to 28 and 33 with much lesser defenses, I'm guessing we could reasonably expect SLC to score much fewer points.

Now on to SLC's Achille's Heal: defense. I just about laughed out loud when the claim of SLC's defense winning their last game was made. They coughed up 30 points and are made to sound like they held Abilene to a field goal in garbage time. And the 35 they gave up to 3-7 Haltom City? Lord help us. Colerain gives up bupkus to any and all comers. SLC drops 30 points last week and 35 to a 3-7 team, and everybody in the world has an excuse (errrr...explanation) for it. Get real, people.

In contrast, Colerain's most serious scare this year was when Moeller scored the one and only touchdown Colerain has given up in the first half this year. The Cardinal's reaction to that TD? They blocked the extra point and shut out Moeller for the rest of the game. Moe had been averaging 34 points per game up to that point. THAT is defense winning the game. Just like holding four Ohio D1 tournment opponents to 3 ppg is "defense winning the game" (just for :rant2: and giggles, forget the 35.5 the offense put up). Giving up 30 points like SLC did last week means your defense needs work, you'd better have a heck of an offense and you'd better hope the other team's defense has the same problems yours does.

The fact is that Colerain's defense has not been challenged AT ALL this year. Not by Elder or Moe, who averaged 34 ppg each. Nor by 11-0 Centerville, which was averaging 37 ppg and had logged over 550 ypg on at least one occasion. If you look at their box scores, you will readily see that if Colerain had left their 1st string defense in all the time, the most points they would have given up is 6 (I refer you back to the Moeller game I mentioned).

But, alas, magically we are to believe that SLC has the secret sauce to score significant points on Colerain. And we are to believe that somehow, SLC's undersized and not-so-speedy defense will somehow be able to hold a big and physical Colerain offense, despite the fact that ever since week one, no team has held them to less than 34 and they are averaging over 40.


So, could somebody please explain again why SLC is #1 and Colerain isn't? Because what I've heard so far just doesn't fly.

"Well, I don't think Colerain has faced a passing attack like SLC's". And Southlake Carroll HAS faced a defense even close to Colerain's???? Please.... And I guess we are to overlook this little defensive problem they have and assume that a big, strong Colerain offense wouldn't push them up and down the field all night?

Edited by Super B, 30 November 2004 - 08:01 AM.


#68 rantanamo

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:28 PM

You're talkin about Texas, man. Any top team in the country can come to Texas for a season, and they will have scares. That's just the way it is. To go a bunch and 1 over 3 seasons(including having 5 or 6 playoff games) is a testament to them. Don't care how many times someone blows someone else out, that's not gonna happen in a state with Lufkin, Longview, Denton Ryan, Katy, GP Northshore, Converse Judson, Midland Lee, Dallas Carter, Arlington Lamar, etc, etc. That's not even mentioning 4A powers. It just doesn't happen in Texas. No matter what team you are, you will face a more talented or better coached team multiple times per year if you play that much. Sorry if that hurts feelings, but Texas playoffs are like ultimate fighting or something.

Having said all that, if they lose Saturday, then they aren't No. 1. Wouldn't surprise anyone in Texas if they did. There are just damn good, quality football teams all over the state of Texas. 20+ million population. Only less than 1% are privates that compete with public, so no select teams. Their run is simply incredible. Give them some due.

#69 Lancer1997

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:30 PM

Conch,

you already know im in your corner on this one.

Anyone who has passing knowledge of football knows defense takes precedent when all else is equal.

Until I did the analysis today I did not realize only 2 points per game separated the offenses. I knew there would be tremendous desparity between compartive defenses, however I did not expect to find out that SLC gives up 20 points per game, a full 2 TD's more a game than Colerain allows.

When the offenses are equal (48 points per game for SLC and 46 for Colerain) it comes down to defense.

I agree, Colerain must be #1. They are in my book at this point.

**this is in no way a slight to SLC. They should be #2, and out of 25,000 teams thats still a compliment. The flip side of Colerain has ever seen an offense like SLC's, is SLC has never faced a defense the caliber of Colerain.

I repeat. When all else is equal, defense wins championships ans tough games. As fantastic as the DLS offense is, it is their defense that has won them all big games.

#70 concha

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:34 PM

You're talkin about Texas, man.  Any top team in the country can come to Texas for a season, and they will have scares.  That's just the way it is.  To go a bunch and 1 over 3 seasons(including having 5 or 6 playoff games) is a testament to them.  Don't care how many times someone blows someone else out, that's not gonna happen in a state with Lufkin, Longview, Denton Ryan, Katy, GP Northshore, Converse Judson, Midland Lee, Dallas Carter, Arlington Lamar, etc, etc.  That's not even mentioning 4A powers.  It just doesn't happen in Texas.  No matter what team you are, you will face a more talented or better coached team multiple times per year if you play that much.  Sorry if that hurts feelings, but Texas playoffs are like ultimate fighting or something. 

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And Ohio has Colerain, Elder, Moeller, St. Xavier, St. Ignatius, Warren Harding, Glenville, St. Edward, McKinley.... And guess what? They all go after the same title.

The Ohio D1 tournament this year has had about 7 or 8 teams that have hit the national or regional rankings this year. Every one of them has been in the same tournament Colerain is competing. This is one reason why Ohio D1 is deemed the best tournament in the country.

Texas doesn't have a monopoly on great programs or a tough post-season. Not by a longshot.

#71 concha

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:42 PM

Conch,

you already know im in your corner on this one.

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Lancer,

I know. I just wish someone could step up and AT LEAST TRY to make a reasoned argument as to why SLC is better than Colerain. SLC's passing game? I counter with Colerain's defense AND offense and SLC's vulnerable defense. SLC's strength of schedule? I counter with their inability to shut down cupcakes like Haltom City that a team like Colerain would annihilate and the number of times they have given up 20+ or 30+ points. SHouldn't they be scoring big on the cupcakes AND not let them score????

#72 Commissioner

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:43 PM

And Ohio has Colerain, Elder, Moeller, St. Xavier, St. Ignatius, Warren Harding, Glenville, St. Edward, McKinley.... And guess what? They all go after the same title. 

The Ohio D1 tournament this year has had about 7 or 8 teams that have hit the national or regional rankings this year. Every one of them has been in the same tournament Colerain is competing. This is one reason why Ohio D1 is deemed the best tournament in the country.

Texas doesn't have a monopoly on great programs or a tough post-season. Not by a longshot.

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and how many of those schools you just mentioned have open enrollment which means any student can attend?

#73 concha

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:49 PM

and how many of those schools you just mentioned have open enrollment which means any student can attend?

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1) I note you avoid trying to make an strong argument for SLC.

2) I am unsure how many of those Ohio schools have open enrollment. However, they are all much smaller than most Texas 5As. The Catholics I mentioned typically draw from their local parish schools (few public grade schoolers attend). For example, I don't think there was a single non-Catholic grade school product who started for Elder's last two state champion teams.

3) Given the ridiculous bucks that many Texas communities are willing to spend on football, are we to believe that everything about the top programs in Texas is squeaky clean?

#74 rantanamo

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:53 PM

Don't need to argue for SLC. They speak on the field. To make such a run in Texas 5A football says enough. Some of the teams they have destroyed are considered top tier.

You can't make talent or size arguments. That's ridiculous. If that's the case, Texas and Georgia should be #1 and #2 in the BCS, and Dallas Carter and DeSoto would alternate as Texas 5A champs every year.

#75 Lancer1997

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 10:57 PM

3) Given the ridiculous bucks that many Texas communities are willing to spend on football, are we to believe that everything about the top programs in Texas is squeaky clean?

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Im willing to give Texas the benefit of the doubt on cleanliness.

However we have been at this for a full day and several hundred posts and the fact is nobody, NO ONE, has given a reasoned argument for SLC to remain #1 after the case I presented in the other thread. Even Jamie was pressed to find a way to justify SLC being #1.

I simply dont think anyone has a stronger case than Colerain since nobody can produce a reasoned argument to the contrary.

Its funny that I am defending and making a case for an Ohio school....because it is the same argument I have used to defend DLS in the past.

Powerful offense, even tougher Defense.

#76 Lancer1997

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 11:23 PM

Also-

Keep in mind I have no horse in this race. The cali team in the battle with SLC and Colerain, MV, I have seen live and they do not even remotely compare to any of the DLS championship teams or the 2001 Poly Team DLS beat, or the Mater Dei teams of the 90's.

So I just want to see whats done to be right. And So far nobody has given a detailed and reason opinion why SLC deserves it, against my argument.

***the argument of going undefeated through Texas 5A is moot versus an Ohio team because they have arguably a better system, and similar competition levels especially in the playoffs...


Whats right is right. Colerain deserves it right now.

#77 Mr. Clean

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 01:41 AM

Don't need to argue for SLC.  They speak on the field.  To make such a run in Texas 5A football says enough.  Some of the teams they have destroyed are considered top tier.

You can't make talent or size arguments.  That's ridiculous.  If that's the case, Texas and Georgia should be #1 and #2 in the BCS, and Dallas Carter and DeSoto would alternate as Texas 5A champs every year.

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Uhhhhhh, that's not very convincing, at least to me.

#78 oldkatyplayer

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 05:17 AM

man , do you just hate texas football or what, not trying to make ya mad but man you been on slc's butt like they did something wrong. They didnt ask to be number 1 but there number one. Like i said numerous times, i rather just see a national playoff system between state champs, personally if you want your ohio team to be number 1 fine with me.

go tigers! :clap:

#79 concha

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 05:41 AM

Still no reasonable arguments for SLC at #1? Anyone? Beuhler? Anyone?

Jamie, are you paying attention here? It seems that in their hearts the Texans have SLC at #1, they just can't get their minds around it.


Clock's still ticking.....

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#80 oldkatyplayer

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 05:58 AM

look i have read numerous facts about your ohio team, i say let them play slc and see who wins.

go tigers! :clap:




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