52 replies to this topic

[DaPantha]

I'll bet a handfull of nickles that no other college football coach will ever allow a girl to check out equipment and go on the practice field again......*it has too many potential problems. If I was still coaching in H.S. I'd never allow a girl to be on the practice squad- too many potential problems! Shoot-Fire, I don't want them as "trainers" or "water-girls" either. Stick to football!

I think its sad that we still have this kind of sexism in our society. What? you dont think that a group of guys can play a game with a girl and NOT sexually assault her??? That's rediculous!

[viking4life]

I'll bet a handfull of nickles that no other college football coach will ever allow a girl to check out equipment and go on the practice field again......*it has too many potential problems. If I was still coaching in H.S. I'd never allow a girl to be on the practice squad- too many potential problems! Shoot-Fire, I don't want them as "trainers" or "water-girls" either. Stick to football!

I think its sad that we still have this kind of sexism in our society. What? you dont think that a group of guys can play a game with a girl and NOT sexually assault her??? That's rediculous!

I agree ONE HUNDRED PECENT WITH YOU PANTHA!!! I will just take my school as an example. Only our head trainer, and one student trainer are guys. All the ten or so others are girls. They are around all the time, doing what trainers do. They will touch, put things on, etc. the players. It is the players responsibility to act "right" and not doi anything. Now, I can not believe a person who thinks no girls should be allowed to be a back up kicker. That is SEXISM.

Edited by viking4life, 20 February 2004 - 04:50 PM.

[viking4life]

I know many girls who have played football. I dont see how letting one be on the practice squad is a mistake. Not saying what has been alleged is OK, but, I dont think it is a mistake to allow a girl to play football.

[Exporter]

I'll bet a handfull of nickles that no other college football coach will ever allow a girl to check out equipment and go on the practice field again......*it has too many potential problems. If I was still coaching in H.S. I'd never allow a girl to be on the practice squad- too many potential problems! Shoot-Fire, I don't want them as "trainers" or "water-girls" either. Stick to football!

I think its sad that we still have this kind of sexism in our society. What? you dont think that a group of guys can play a game with a girl and NOT sexually assault her??? That's rediculous!

I think that you,DaPantha, are directing an allegation toward me. If I am mistaken , pardon me. At times even you and I can read something the writer didn't intend to say. So, DaPantha I am starting off from a neutral stance. I didn't write in haste, I welcome your thoughts. Let me say that we don't live in a sex-neutral world although some intellectuals do promote the idea that there is no difference between boys and girls. When they succede our nation will be over run by our enemies. We shouldn't be duped.

1. Did you interpret something in my post as sexist? I read your post that way. You may have lost track of this thread. The question is about U of C and ALLEGATIONS. Un- proven allegations. Then it turned to the Coach, Gary Barnett. I made a judgement call in my post. I said other coaches will certainly not allow girls on the practice field- TOO MANY potential problems. The Head Coach determines who gets equipment and he has 85 to 95 players to oversee. He would be smart to avoid potential problems. What do you think would have happened if that girl had broken a leg on the practice field. Her dad, the Doctor, may have sued the university. She was an Honor student in H.S. so she should have expected to be treated badly by the real players on the practice field. She is a smart girl. She was a bad joke to most of the players. I think she was a put down to the players. What player wants to admit that his team has a girl on it ? Off the field it's a different story- act civilized! Off the field really good players are usually gentlemen. [Have you wondered why Barnett allowed the girl to practice kicking?]

What I wrote was in no way sexist.....it's EASY to throw out words like sexist(if you do you are a PC Prince) or prejudiced or non-environmentalist, etc. A personal note : (I coached HS girls and Boys in T & F for over 12 years. That speaks for itself. I had a few good one too! But the girls didn't have the same facilities, didn't use the wt. room at the same time or compete against the boys. No way was I disparaging the girl or any other girl. I wrote truth.

Stick to what I actually wrote. You put words in my mouth! You say maybe I don't think boys can play a game with some girls without sexually assulting the girls. You wrote that! I NEVER said one word about boys playing a game with girls! If you think football practice at a University IS PLAYING GAMES - go to the nearest university during Spring Training ....stand on the sidelines for 1/2 an hour ....and see if they are "playing games". You will see and hear brutal hits over and over. They are not "playing". I don't want to tell you this BUT, I had 38 years as a teacher/coach and never had even one complaint, repremand or bad phone call. I was voted as the most outstanding teacher on two occasions, was a Master Teacher for 14 years and had 4 Dist. Champion Track Teams, as a Head Football coach I had 3 Dist. Champions and 50% of the kids I worked with WERE GIRLS. So PLEASE dont use those P.C. Terms with me. It doesn't stick.

I know nothing about you. You may have some daughters who had bad experiences in sports, on the other hand ytou don't know me either. So lets just say you had an error in judgement. I forgive you. No problem here.
Football, even on the H.S. level, is not for girls.

[viking4life]

Girls can play football. Some even better than most of the guys on the team. I dont see aproblem with girls playing football.

[Exporter]

Some have said that girls can play football better than guys on the team. Some have said that there is no problem with having girls on the football team. They must be living in Fantacy Land. If the coach wants to throw care to the wind and suit up a few girls for football, he first would have to get it approved by the District's Legal team. The propensity for law suits and major problems arising from the girls being treated the same as the boys is great. If the girls were not treated the same as the boys then the coach has a problem with the boys. Too many problems!

The differences in strength and speed are evident by checking the differences between the sexes at Track Meets. Check Olympic times and distances, girls are not close to the boys performances. In the wt. room the girls lag far behind the boys. Physically, the girls cannot compete with boys in a sport such as football. It is "Nolo Contendre". Go find the biggest baddest girl in the school and throw her into JV workouts- see how long it is before she is either injured or drops out.

The previous poster says girls can do better than some of the boys on the football team. That seems me to be a statement made by one who is inexperienced or one who is talking about a very weak boys team. It could be that the poster is saying that in jest. I will take it as a joke - anyone who has coached both girls and boys know the girls limitation. Why is it that boys can't play on a girls volley ball team? Why does the UIL separate boys and girls in athletics?

Gary Barnett made his biggest mistake when he allowed the girl to come on to the practice field. Why he did is a mystery. One Boulder paper said it was a favor to Dr. Hnida who had requested that his daughter be allow to practice kicking. Lets get one thing straight. The girl was never in a game, the girl was not on scholarship and the girl was never a part of the Colorado Football team. Some news services talk about her as, "The Colorado Football Player". She had as much business there as a boy does on a girls basketball team.

If the poster's theory is correct.....why do we have boys BBall and girls BBAll. Why not combine them - since there is no difference between boys and girls. Why do they separate boys and girls at Track Meets? THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS- THERE ARE DIFFERENCES.

[Super B]

Some have said that girls can play football better than guys on the team. Some have said that there is no problem with having girls on the football team. They must be living in Fantacy Land. If the coach wants to throw care to the wind and suit up a few girls for football, he first would have to get it approved by the District's Legal team. The propensity for law suits and major problems arising from the girls being treated the same as the boys is great. If the girls were not treated the same as the boys then the coach has a problem with the boys. Too many problems!

The differences in strength and speed are evident by checking the differences between the sexes at Track Meets. Check Olympic times and distances, girls are not close to the boys performances. In the wt. room the girls lag far behind the boys. Physically, the girls cannot compete with boys in a sport such as football. It is "Nolo Contendre". Go find the biggest baddest girl in the school and throw her into JV workouts- see how long it is before she is either injured or drops out.

The previous poster says girls can do better than some of the boys on the football team. That seems me to be a statement made by one who is inexperienced or one who is talking about a very weak boys team. It could be that the poster is saying that in jest. I will take it as a joke - anyone who has coached both girls and boys know the girls limitation. Why is it that boys can't play on a girls volley ball team? Why does the UIL separate boys and girls in athletics?

Gary Barnett made his biggest mistake when he allowed the girl to come on to the practice field. Why he did is a mystery. One Boulder paper said it was a favor to Dr. Hnida who had requested that his daughter be allow to practice kicking. Lets get one thing straight. The girl was never in a game, the girl was not on scholarship and the girl was never a part of the Colorado Football team. Some news services talk about her as, "The Colorado Football Player". She had as much business there as a boy does on a girls basketball team.

If the poster's theory is correct.....why do we have boys BBall and girls BBAll. Why not combine them - since there is no difference between boys and girls. Why do they separate boys and girls at Track Meets? THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS- THERE ARE DIFFERENCES.

I don't get it. What's the point? Are we debating whether girls and boys can or should play sports together? If so, it won't be much of a debate. You will waste a lot of time typing your opinion and won't hear anyone disagree with you.

I believe the previous posters point is that girls should at least get the opportunity. I do think a Kicker or a punter or a holder would be the only postitions a girl could succede playing football with guys. Just my opinion.

Edited by Super B, 24 February 2004 - 09:15 AM.

[Commissioner]

Exporter and Viking4Life....

STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!

Now you two are some of my loyal posters and this little war between the two of you had better stop!

[DaPantha]

Just getting back on, I want to respond to what exporter said about my earlier comments.

Perhaps I may have read too much into what you said, but my point is that the fact that there are "so many potential problems" with girls, guys, and sports colliding is sad. "Cant we all just get along?" LOL Seriously, why is our society so sue happy? And why is it that a group of young guys on a team with a female, rape her? Its terrible!!!

Now, this only applies to this situation if the allegations are true, but something like this always seems to happen. Or maybe we only hear about the one that go wrong. This young woman, Katie, is still playing football. So i guess its working out for her in that program.

I dont know, you may be right, exporter, but if you are, I dont like it. Girls will never match up to guys in many ways. There is definitly a difference between the sexes, but I just don't understand why girls cant have the opportunity to play with guys. There are some great female athletes. Especially in a sport that doesnt have a counterpart for them. Baseball & Softball, Men's B-ball & Women's, Men's Soccer & Women's, Football & ?.... (This also contributes to problems with Title IX)

Or maybe its true. Football players are rapists waiting for the right situation...

[Super B]

Just getting back on, I want to respond to what exporter said about my earlier comments.

Perhaps I may have read too much into what you said, but my point is that the fact that there are "so many potential problems" with girls, guys, and sports colliding is sad. "Cant we all just get along?" LOL Seriously, why is our society so sue happy? And why is it that a group of young guys on a team with a female, rape her? Its terrible!!!

Now, this only applies to this situation if the allegations are true, but something like this always seems to happen. Or maybe we only hear about the one that go wrong. This young woman, Katie, is still playing football. So i guess its working out for her in that program.

I dont know, you may be right, exporter, but if you are, I dont like it. Girls will never match up to guys in many ways. There is definitly a difference between the sexes, but I just don't understand why girls cant have the opportunity to play with guys. There are some great female athletes. Especially in a sport that doesnt have a counterpart for them. Baseball & Softball, Men's B-ball & Women's, Men's Soccer & Women's, Football & ?.... (This also contributes to problems with Title IX)

Or maybe its true. Football players are rapists waiting for the right situation...

The topic here is Gary Barnett: Colorado Coach Is he being crucified.

On a side note though, I agree with Exporter that women physically can not compete with men in any athletic event period.

I also agree though that they should have every right to try. If a woman gets hurt, that is a shame, but not totally unexpected considering the overwhelming physical dominance a man would have over her. If a woman is harrased, raped, beaten, etc... that is just plain wrong. Men do not have a right to do that to a woman no matter what excuse they think they have.

So, in short, if a woman wants to try to compete in athletics, go for it. For those of you who actually think there are woman who can compete with men, I'd have to say you must have been beaten up too many times when you were a child by your big sister. That's meant as a joke, so please do not take any offense to it. Also, I'd like to challenge you to find an example where a woman has equally & competitively competed with men in any (real) sport, & I'm not talking about Billiards either.

[Exporter]

Super B, Oh me, Oh my.....what a post you just made...it reminds me of Mark Twain or possibly Thomas Porter, Julius Rothstien or Al Capp. They all had a way of turning a word toward humor. Humor is appreciated.

You took a serious subject and made it palatable with little portions of humor. I actually laughed at parts of the piece.

You pointed out that this thread is about Coach Barnett : Is he being crusified? Good! May I point out why we seemed to have deviated from the main thrust of the premise? I contend that Barnett made his biggest mistake upon allowing Kati to have equipment and go on the field. Why? I say he overlooked the potential for problems that could arise from having a female in close proximity to his male players and how many players would RESENT having a girl on THEIR team.

I liked the line about if big sister beats up little brother ...the little brother thinks big sister could be a great football player...ha ,ha, ha. That's an excellent analogy!

Super B, you and I (Exporter) agree on everything except one little point. You seem to say any girl should have the ( what is the correct word to use here??) right or priviledge or opportunity or chance to play on a men's team. Well do you also say that a man has the right or priviledge or opportunity to play on an all-woman's team?? I don't think that you do! Equallity under Title IX....? ? Ha, Ha. (I belong to the V.F.W. . When a woman, alone, comes into the V.F.W. hall....what do you think goes on in the men's minds? She is invading a masculine domain! If she has rude remarks made to her do you blame the men or her? I use this extreme example to make my point. Women can be in the wrong place sometimes). A man going into a ladies bathroom is another possibility...oh, some will take a shot at me for that, huh? Ha, Ha. Keep it light.

My contention is that to allow a HS girl to be put on the football practice field and to ask her to compete with the boys will lead to big problems. One may be the boys will take it easy on her and not get themselves ready to play in games. The others will come from parents who will protest, from the girl being hurt, from the schools insurance and legal staff and from many of the boys who will be embarrased that their team has a girl on it thereby making the team look weak. I would never fear having sexual harrasment on any team that I coached- that is not the expected problem. But on the University level it may just well be.

Super B your humorous approach was welcome.....but now is Barnett being crucified? {Sorry I underlined some sentences & used color....it was just to highlight important phrases.} You did a good job Super B ! Rush L. uses humor to point out falicies in an opponent's contention too- you are in good company.

[Super B]

Super B, you and I (Exporter) agree on everything except one little point. You seem to say any girl should have the ( what is the correct word to use here??) right or priviledge or opportunity or chance to play on a men's team. Well do you also say that a man has the right or priviledge or opportunity to play on an all-woman's team?? I don't think that you do! Equallity under Title IX....? ? Ha, Ha. (I belong to the V.F.W. . When a woman, alone, comes into the V.F.W. hall....what do you think goes on in the men's minds? She is invading a masculine domain! If she has rude remarks made to her do you blame the men or her? I use this extreme example to make my point. Women can be in the wrong place sometimes). A man going into a ladies bathroom is another possibility...oh, some will take a shot at me for that, huh? Ha, Ha. Keep it light.

I know it sucks, but understand where I am coming from on this.

Yes, there is a double standard. If a man wanted to play in the LPGA, forget it, it ain't happening. Hypothetically, if a young man comes to a Texas public school after having been in CA (wherever) & wanted to play Volleyball, forget it. There is no boys volleyball team in Texas. Yes, that sucks big time and is no fair to the kid that just wants to play volleyball.

However, here is why I don't think it is that big a deal that a woman can play football with the guys, even though I would not like it. Fact is, she would not compete well. If she wants to take the "opportunity" to play football, she will have to take everything that comes with it. Pain, injuries, humiliation, pain, etc... Did I mention pain? For a girl, she may be pretty good. That won't be good enough though.

In other words, It's her grave she's digging.

Still, we cannot just say she should not be able to play, to much equal rights talk for that. Like it or not, that's the way it is. I know it sucks but that's life & lifes no fair sometimes.

[DaPantha]

Girls will never match up to guys in many ways. There is definitly a difference between the sexes, but I just don't understand why girls cant have the opportunity to play with guys.

I specifically made the point that females cannot compete athletically with males. But its the whole opportunity issue. If girls want to play football there is no reason they shouldnt have the opportunity. And if theres not enough girls who want to participate to field all-women teams, then what else is there but to play with guys, if they are willing. Then, if they cant hack it, they're gone, quit or cut. Just b/c guys might miss opportunities to participate b/c they cant play on the womens teams does not mean that girls should miss opportunities too. Two wrongs dont make a right. And this only applies to sports such as V-ball where there arent any Men's teams.

[Super B]

Girls will never match up to guys in many ways.  There is definitly a difference between the sexes, but I just don't understand why girls cant have the opportunity to play with guys.

I specifically made the point that females cannot compete athletically with males. But its the whole opportunity issue. If girls want to play football there is no reason they shouldnt have the opportunity. And if theres not enough girls who want to participate to field all-women teams, then what else is there but to play with guys, if they are willing. Then, if they cant hack it, they're gone, quit or cut. Just b/c guys might miss opportunities to participate b/c they cant play on the womens teams does not mean that girls should miss opportunities too. Two wrongs dont make a right. And this only applies to sports such as V-ball where there arent any Men's teams.

I agree 100%.

[Exporter]

Super B and DaPantha: Both of you make the same point.....that girls deserve the "opportunity" to play on boy's teams. Is that correct?


I suppose I am looking at that question from an administrative point of view. Let's say there was a 200lb. amazon who runs a 11.0 100m and benches 200lbs....she long jumps 18 feet. And besides that she is one mean ol' girl. She is still a girl. Lets suppose you are the Athletic Director of a District.{ I have nevr seen such a girl}

You are the Athletic Director in a District of three 5A H. schools. For your information , I am NOT talking about the campus coordinator...I mean The Athletic Director in a separate office in the Superintendant's complex. The one who answers to the school board.

A football H. coach asks you (the Ath.Dir.) if you have any reservations about a girl playing on the Varsity football team.....woah now...what's that you say?

First there is the liability problem- will insurnce pay for a girl injured in a boy's sport? If the answer is "NO!" then the school is liable! Then if you say ,"Go on let her play". Then how many other girls will try to wedge their way into boy's sports? What will the UIL ruling be? What will you as the Ath. Dir. tell the howling parents and News People when they come for an interview? What will the football opponents have to say- they may get your team disqualified ( meaning FORFIT games for playing an ineligible player)? As is often done, the girl's parents can raise embarrasing questions and even attack the head coach for what they percieve as unfair treatment. I HAVE SEEN THIS - AND IT WAS IN A CLASSROOM SITUATION!( If you want to know, PM me for that info). Girls are different from boys! Both mentally and physically. What seems to be acceptable for boys may be construed by a girl into a major problem. Girls are more emotional.

I suppose most of you come from NORMAL families. I can tell you there are some families who are just waiting for a small thing to happen to their girl so they can come to the school wearing Devil's Horns. This get especially nasty when the complaining parent is a Minority Parent. Be Ware!

I look at this question of girls being on a boys team from an administrative stance. Sexual harrasment was NOT mentioned. For the one who asked if all football players are RAPIST....the answer is NO. In fact , go to any HS ...ask the Principal what group of kids causes the most disipline problems.... In my 38 years in HS I can think of only one football player who was a dicipline problem. He was expelled from school for a Spring Break incident.

[DaPantha]

shouldnt girls be given the opportunity to play sports with guys if there is not a comparable women's team?

[DaPantha]

in response to exporter, how would a girl getting hurt playing with guys really be any different than getting hurt playing with other girls or a guy getting hurt? The parents have to sign an assumption of risk statement anyway.

[Exporter]

O.K. DaPanther, Lets look at this from an Athletic Director's view point. He is in charge of all insurance, funding, equipment, and ultimately all that happens in in athletics. He answers to the school board. { you'll notice that sexual harrasment is not mentioned in this post except for here.}
1. Insurance: Will the Insur. Co. pay for a girl being hurt in a nonapproved sport?
They will ask if the U.I.L. has approved such participation. Schools are sensitive about this- they don't want to foot the bills. Schools are very sensitive about potential law suits.
2. Future implications: Will giving approval for a girl to play football open up a
Pandora's box? When will it be that a girl wants to play
baseball? Does the coach want to have to deal with that?
It could cause a silent rebellion amoung coaches. What
effect would it have on the moral of the boys? If girl"A"
is shoved onto the baseball team, then you can be assured that girl "B" will be close behind. What's the result of that?
3.Immediate effects: Is that Athletic Director ready to be bombarded by the media and outraged parents? Will he be ready to be made fun of by the other schools in the District? What does he do if there was a team meeting and the boys voted to keep football a men's sport? Boys can be cruel. I've seen boys do a number on the son of a police Chief, all done before the whistle. The football coaches want to win games not to have extra responsibilities thrust on them.
4. I have known two large -school Athletic Directors well over 20 years. I think if a head coach asked them if it was alright for them to put girls on the football team - both of them would ask," Did you fall on your head?" The RISKS for parents causing trouble is much greater than just saying "NO!" to girls playing football. I have seen parents come to school wearing Devil Horns. Some are just looking for something to cause a teacher or coach to loose their job. Did you know that sometimes kids tell lies to their parents? Especially when they are not doing well in a subject or sport. If you want the details PM me and I'll tell you. The bad "press" can cause embarrasment for the Athletic Director. It's just not worth it!

5. Will the District Commettee rule that the school is playing an inelegible player.
That can cause forfiture of any games she plays in. They can do about what they want to do. They surely would do that if a boy was playing on a girl's softball team!

[DaPantha]

First of all, i thought it went without saying that the UIL and therefore the other schools, would have to be involved. Your not gonna just suddenly send out a girl to play suddenly one game. But then again the UIL cannot prohibit this if there is no rule against it (but i dont know the entire rule book, so...). I think of this differently than you do, i guess. Its really more like integration to me. We learned there that seperate is inherently unequal. I know your gonna bring up the fact that girls cant commpete with guys when i say that, but we're talking about OPPORTUNITY here. There would only be a girl on the team if she was actually better than the other guys at her position that got cut. I think this is possible, more so at some positions (kicker, holder) than others (line) but is it not reasonable to think that the best female athlete might actually be better than say, the 5th or 6th reciever? or the 2nd or 3rd kicker?

Why should the team have so much power? These are kids. Im not saying what they think doesnt matter, but i compare it to if they decided to fire their own coach. They dont make those kind of decisions.

Parents. What parents would be outraged? The girls parents would be the ones who let her play, so what would they be upset about? And as lying goes, the guys themselves are just as likely to lie as the girl on a girls team or the girl on a guys team. This should have NOTHING to do with it.

And so what if other schools or people look down on you for fighting for something you believe in? If everyone always worried about what others thought, many great achievements would not have been reached.

Its not really that i think this is going to happen or that people are ready for it, but i dont think the idea should be considered so utterly rediculous.

[viking4life]

I think girls should be given the opprutunity to play football with the guys. I would not allow them to play sports like basketball, occer, softball, etc, with the boys though. Mainly because that same sport is offered for the girls, or the equivilent to it( baseball and softball). I know that more and more schools are also vreating guy's volleyball teams. I think that some girls could compete in football, and should be given the opprutunity to compte in that sport.

Take wrestling, it is a hard sport, lots of injuries. There is now a girls wreslting program at almost all large schools, and many smaller ones are adding the program also. If the physical aspect is what is in question, wrestling is just as physical as football, so why can't a girl play football, if they can compete in wrestling? We all know that no school could havfe the funds to have a girls football team, so in all fairness, a girl should be allowed to compete in football.

Girls should be allowed to compete in football with the guys, but football only!

Edited by viking4life, 23 February 2004 - 08:42 PM.