506 replies to this topic

[wood76]

To those of you who are actually open minded enough to learn about what has made DLS successful, I'd recommend the following link: DLS Humility in Success

The rest of you shouldn't bother, as you've demonstrated that open-minded intelligent debate is not an option.

[Super B]

That's not very nice.

[Super B]

To those of you who are actually open minded enough to learn about what has made DLS successful, I'd recommend the following link: DLS Humility in Success

The rest of you shouldn't bother, as you've demonstrated that open-minded intelligent debate is not an option.

Actually I have already read that. Thanks though. I have a lot of respect for DLS & their coach. Just because I think there is no way their streak would exist if they played an all Texas schedule, doesn't mean I do not respect them.

[LION KING]

How many people on this site actually care about DLS AND California football. It wasn't done against Texas competition, so what's your point Wood76.

Edited by LION KING, 19 March 2004 - 09:51 AM.

[Lancer1997]

Actually I have already read that. Thanks though. I have a lot of respect for DLS & their coach. Just because I think there is no way their streak would exist if they played an all Texas schedule, doesn't mean I do not respect them.

Arent you the objective voice SuperB? How is that an objective statement?

Basically it boils down to this. For some you Texas guys claiming the following:

#1- That the noise level and size of the stadium would disrupt DLS
#2- The playoff system alone would contribute to them losing
#3- Their players that go both ways will get worn out
#4- That up 20 teams in Texas should be ranked ahead of DLS and "COULD BEAT
THEM."


#1- DLS has played in front of 30,000 rabid screaming fans, no actually a whole entire island who was backing their team. Thats a hostile crowd wouldnt you agree? And 30,000 sounds like the "20,000-30,000" number you threw out earlier. Furthermore, those Texas stadiums are quite impressive, and if this was a "who can average more attendance per game" debate, Texas would win. However since the crowd does not play the game, and since apparently DLS had no problem with noise level at 30,000 with an entire state backing their opposition, I dont think Texas would be any different in that regard...regarding the game played by the players.

#2- Says who? If DLS were to play a 16 game season it seems to reason that if what you say is true- "DLS would not have that Streak if they had to play in our playoff system" then the opposite must also be true- "Since DLS would be playing 16 games a year instead of 13 they would have either a) reached the 151 wins a row they are currently at, a few seasons sooner, or B ) after 12 years have over 200 wins in a row instead of 151, due to more games. So then both arguments could be true. Will we ever know? Nope, but it is important to know there are 2 sides to every coin. Now think of it this way, becuase all of you will respond with "They would not win 200 in a row in Texas", well nobody thought anyone could ever win 48 in a row in cali (the previous record, and DLS has TRIPLED THAT.) If you cant see that there must be a reason for this, and no it is not because they get the best talent, because they dont, not even in their immediate area, then it is truly sad. For the rest of this argument see #4, where I will pick up where I leave off here.


#3- Mater Dei and Poly both said that emphatically. More so Poly. Poly had seveal players over 300, and most were 6'4 or taller. And these were stud athletes, not just big bodies. Two of these guys started for USC last year, one as true soph (Winston Jusitce OL) and the other was redshirted his freshman year, but at 6'7 315, and a sub 5.0 forty, I dont think his athleticsm comes into question. (Manuel Wright). The starting safety for USC was also on that Poly team and is said to be one of the best, if not the best, safety in the country now that Sean Taylor is going pro. All of these big strong bodies plus all the other 280 pound plus guys were leaning on DLS lineman averaging 230 pounds. DLS guys went both ways. If you bother to read the book "One Great Game" about this 2001 matchup (and if you are a true high school football fan, not just limited to your own state- and no that is not a knock, some people only want to know about there state), the story will tell you how the Poly coaches planned for DLS to wear down in the second half. Thing of it is, during the 3rd quarter DLS starters rested because they were worn down. The Poly coaches were right. BUT, and this is a big but, DLS reserves came in and held Poly out of the end zone. The system prevailed, with backups who hadnt played much all season except for mop up time. Furthermore it was St. Louis' strategy to run down DLS's throught with sheer size advantage. That didnt work either despite a hefty 70 pound weight advantage.


#4- This is a ludicrous point and I will tell you why. Saying that 20 teams could beat the DLS spartans is like saying every single DII school could have beat UCLA in basketball during their 88 game win streak Its just a lame argument. You have to be joking. See, when a team wins 151 in a row, there is naturally resentment and the human need for an explanation as to why this has occured. Trying to ascertain that 20 teams would beat them is just plain off base. Now, North Shore had a really good team, and could have competed with DLS. Im sure there might be another, but dont try to say 20 teams are better and would have beat them. Furthermore to the ill-informed posters saying that DLS would be a 50% win team in district play, you have got to be kidding. There is a reason DLS has won all these games in a row. They never had a winning season before Lad arrived. Now if DLS goes to Texas exactly as is, with Lad at the helm, the mere fact he has lost 4 games in 21 years, tells me he will not fall to a 50% district percentage. Think beofre you post some of that. The avergae score of a DLS game is 42-9. They beat a team with 25 D1 players ont he roster, 4 of whom start for USC, by 2 touchdowns. I think they could handle Texas just fine, since no one has sent more players to D1 than that Poly team, and Poly has sent more players to the NFL than any other high school (39 going into April). Neither Texas, nor anybody else can match Poly talent, so DLS' 2 wins over Poly by an average of 17 points tells me that they would hold their own just fine in Texas.

Now that said, I have respect for Texas HS Football, and the competition may be unmatched, but when discussing DLS do not be so arrogant as to say that 20 teams could beat them, or they would be a 50% District team. They won 151 in a row, and its not by accident. Dont you think a hail mary here, or a fluke fumble there, or something would have stopped them in the last 12 years? Its coaching, execution, discipline, and yes, the DLS training and conditioning is unequalled anywhere, even in Texas. (Dont take my word for it you can find sources for this).

And Since Bill Walsh and Jon Gruden see fit to call Lad's teams the best coached, and the best disciplined teams they have ever seen AT ANY LEVEL, I will defer to their opinions.

You can knock DLS, you can hate DLS, but dont for one second be so arrogant as to disrespect what they have done.



-Lancer1997

Edited by Lancer1997, 19 March 2004 - 11:56 AM.

[Super B]

Actually I have already read that. Thanks though. I have a lot of respect for DLS & their coach. Just because I think there is no way their streak would exist if they played an all Texas schedule, doesn't mean I do not respect them.

Arent you the objective voice SuperB? How is that an objective statement?

Basically it boils down to this. For some you Texas guys claiming the following:

#1- That the noise level and size of the stadium would disrupt DLS
#2- The playoff system alone would contribute to them losing
#3- Their players that go both ways will get worn out
#4- That up 20 teams in Texas should be ranked ahead of DLS and "COULD BEAT
THEM."

Yes, I do consider myself quite objective compared to most sports fans. That wasn't an objective statement. That was an opinion that can never be proven or disproven.

A lot of people give predictions and opinions, but are objective at the same time. For instance, I personally believe that St. Joe's will lose in the 3rd round to Wake Forrest. This despite St. Joseph's being ranked much higher, seeded much higher, much better record, etc... I base my opinion on the sole belief that St. Joe's played in an inferior conference. I looked at St. Joe's superiority statistically wise, yet using my objectivity, decided Wake would win.

My opinion stated above would require you to combine your fours points together, like this scenario:

DLS plays EVERY game, year in year out in front of large hostile crowds (for road games), against excellent teams, playing both ways while trying to go through a 6 game playoffs, where the competition and above factors would only get much more difficult as each game went on.

DLS could beat a Texas team once, twice, three times, who knows? But every single game vs. tough quality opponents, in front of large hostile crowds (in the heat if it's early) while playing both ways? I think not.

Point #4 is clearly a shot at us. You have your opinion, we have ours. Since DLS will never play the top 20 teams in TX, much less a team from Texas, you can not prove your point, just like we can not prove our point to you. I could care less what Bill Walsh and Jon Gruden say, though I am sure they were telling the truth. They have never been to Texas to see Texas teams play apparently.

It is not us who seek your approval or care about your opinion. It is U and the DLS bandwagon jumpers who care about our opinions and seek our approval.

Fact: During DLS's entire existance (much less during their streak), DLS has NEVER played a team from Texas. That is a fact, and it is undeniable.

[concha]

I speak as an Ohioan visiting this site. I don't question DLS's ability to go toe-to-toe with anyone and be very competitive. They beat a very big, very fast, very talented Poly team - yes. The system worked - yeas. They could rest their tw0-way for a quarter - yes. Because it was ONE GAME.

Where would DLS be if they played in an environment like Ohio D1 or Texas 4A or 5A, potentially having to face excellent teams every other week or maybe for several games running (can you say tournament?). In Ohio D1, if you are one of the better teams you generally play three or more big name programs just in the regular season and then have win a 5-round tournament filled with the same top programs. In such a system, kids rarely play both ways, and if they do it is in lower impact positions like receiver/DB.

I know DLS usually has the game decided by halftime and can rest its big boys for much of the season. But what if they had to play several teams that can't be counted out at halftime? In such a situation, there is a very real risk of a two-way lineman getting pretty beaten up.

[Super B]

I speak as an Ohioan visiting this site. I don't question DLS's ability to go toe-to-toe with anyone and be very competitive.  They beat a very big, very fast, very talented Poly team - yes.  The system worked - yeas. They could rest their tw0-way for a quarter - yes.  Because it was ONE GAME.

My point exactly!

[viking4life]

There is no doubt in my mind that DLS culd compete very well in Texas. But I do not believe they could withstand playing great teams week after week after week, when playoff time comes around.

I will also say this, if DLS ever gets the courage to come to Texas, there would probably be 50,000+ Texans at the game, atleast.

Us Texas boys have seen DLS play, but have any of yall Californians ever seen a Texas High School football game? From what I have seen, very few of yall have a clue about what Texas High School football is.

20 Texas teams could beat DLS. I am not saying all of them would if DLS played them week after week, like many teams in Texas do, but DLS would lose atleast a fifth of the games. Ask anyone who has been to a HS playoff game in Texas in Texas. UNTIL DLS plays a team from Texas, all this will jsut be "blah, blah, blah" to all of us from Texas. I can bet there are 50 teams that would be glad to play DLS from Texas, atleast.

[concha]

I seem to remember in the 2002 season, after beating St. Louis of Hawaii, DLS had one of its closest games in recent memory the following week (I want to say 28-14 to a non-name program). What if that team had been a power? That kind of thing happens in Ohio and Texas every year. DLS can afford to have down weeks with few worries. They virtually never play national, regional or state powers in succession.

I admire the Streak, but DLS fans just don't want to accept that it has occurred under different competitive circunstances than exist elsewhere in the country.

[viking4life]

DLS has never seen anything like the playoffs in Texas, so they can not tell us, who have seen thousands of games combined, what Texas' playoffs are like. I doubt anyone of them have ever seen just a regular season Texas game.

[Lancer1997]

I seem to remember in the 2002 season, after beating St. Louis of Hawaii, DLS had one of its closest games in recent memory the following week (I want to say 28-14 to a non-name program).  What if that team had been a power?  That kind of thing happens in Ohio and Texas every year.  DLS can afford to have down weeks with few worries.  They virtually never play national, regional or state powers in succession.

I admire the Streak, but DLS fans just don't want to accept that it has occurred under different competitive circunstances than exist elsewhere in the country.

Concha-

That team was my alma Mater SF, and we are a power in NorCal, regarded very well throughout the state. We can claim 13 section titles (yes I know they are sections and that is weak, I will give you that) but nonethelss we are regarded as a power, and can claim to be one of DLS 4 losses the last 21 years (1989 we won 18-16). Furthermore we had another game with DLS where we only lost by 6. (1987). The game after St. Louis was 14-0, and Maurice Drew did not play, nor did Cole Smith a 2 way stud at LB and OL, due to a concussion the week prior. Like I said, even when adversity hits, DLS still wins.


SuperB-

Your points are well taken. I was not taking a shot at Texas, however, I do openly admit I am taking a shot at anyone who posts that 20 Texas teams "Would Beat DLS". You did not say something that rash, and so the statement was not meant specifically for you. But that is ludicrous. Saying that 20 teams would win, included on that posters list were 2A teams as well. C'mon, that lacks a lot of common sense don't you agree? Also the whats being called into question isnt the Streak (thats conchas main point and he has a good argument), but instead the DLS program. various qoutes from posters on here saying DLS wouldnt even be a 50% team in their own district and that they would loose to any one of 20 Texas teams is ridiculous. I am not on anyones bandwagon except for my own alma maters, but it pains me to listen to people make ridiculous claims. Also SuperB it should be pointed out, I am well aware DLS hasnt played a Texas team, but who says Texas is the standard anyway? Since Cali, Texas and Florida are the top 3 football states as agreed earlier in this thread, then how come DLS doesnt get more credit for dominating in one of those football power states? Its not Idaho or Montana for heaven's sakes. We dont know who would win, but the argument you make is mostly they wouldnt have the streak, maybe maybe not. The argument some make is DLS would be a 50% team, And if you know coach Lad, or have read about him as you claim, then you must realize, that would not happen. The streak maybe not, but DLS would definitly be a power, if not The Power.

My second point to you is, I too have Wake beating St. Joes in the third round, survived a scare from Wake yesterday didnt we?


Lastly-

I am simply trying to defend all of the shots that are being fired at DLS. It is easy to provoke the 600 lb gorilla when it isnt staring you in the face. Also since cali and Texas dont have a ton of inter-state matchups who is to say Cali wouldnt win the amjority of those matchups, likewise who is to say Texas would not? But if we are being honest with ourselves, and some rational posters including yourself are, then it must stand to reason you realize that any claim where 20 teams would beat DLS is ridiculous. I highly doubt 20 teams would have beaten North Shore this year.

Could DLS be beat? Absolutely. But the team would have to be very deserving. One thing to understand is that while Football is far more a way of life in Texas than Cali, at DLS the players and coaches are just as serious. Their dedication is unmatched and absolutely beyond all adjectives. It is a program based on love, and accountability to the man next to you. For a team to beat them it would require matching them in the offseason, matching their dedication to not let their teamates down, and even still playing a flawless game. Teams have played Flawless against DLS and still lost, some very good ones too.

DLS will lose someday, maybe in game zero next year to Washington 3-time defending 3A state champ Bellevue, but that still wont dimish what the kids have accomplished. Fathom that for 12 years they ahvent lost. Sure maybe playing the right team over that stretch they might have lost one or two maybe even three games. Even in Texas with all that comp, as long as Lad and Eidson were still coaching them, would you be willing to bet they would not be the premeir program in Texas, disregarding whether they had the Streak or not? The Streak is more of a burden anyway. Teams dont respect it because they feel it wasnt earned by playing the best. Given DLS travels so much they take on more comp outside the state than anyone in Cali, and Texas teams mostly stay within their own state.

I think it would be good for high school football in general to have a DLS vs. Texas matchup. I just would not bet against the Spartans ever. They may lose once in awhile but would you be willing to put money, your own money against them, knowing the coaches they have?

Edited by Lancer1997, 19 March 2004 - 02:27 PM.

[Super B]

Super B-

Your points are well taken. I was not taking a shot at Texas, however, I do openly admit I am taking a shot at anyone who posts that 20 Texas teams "Would Beat DLS". You did not say something that rash, and so the statement was not meant specifically for you. But that is ludicrous. Saying that 20 teams would win, included on that posters list were 2A teams as well. C'mon, that lacks a lot of common sense don't you agree?

My second point to you is, I too have Wake beating St. Joes in the third round, survived a scare from Wake yea=sterday didnt we?

Like you said. The 20 team thing can not be proven. However, it can not be disproven either.

This board here is kinda like a family. U mess with one of us, U mess with all of us. This is why I have taken up the calling to step into the trenches and argue these points. The truth is, none of us will ever know. What you must realize, is that no one in Texas cares that DLS is ranked so highly.

Before DLS took over as the National record holder for consecutive victories, they weren't even close to the top of the national polls. They never won the "mythical National Championship" until after they had beaten the record. DLS was nothing before the streak. DLS started getting so much noteriety nationally the season the obtained the record. Why is that? Could it be that DLS was not considered that impressive? Anytime you have a team accomplishing on a high level, that team tends to have bandwagon jumpers. I contend that is the same way with the writers who vote in these polls. Is it even possible for a single voter to see every team in their top 25 play in one year? Obviously not.

Even before DLS got the #1 ranking or even close, Texas has been getting screwed in the polls. Texas is generally considered the King of High School football, with the most D-1 players & NFL players of all-time, yet if Texas has 3 teams out of 25 in a national poll, we consider ourselves lucky.

I'll leave you with this. Football wasn't created in Texas, just perfected.

[Super B]

BTW, I hope by now you understand. I do have a lot of respect for DLS. The players & coaches that dedicate themselves to perfection should be respected. My hat is off to them. This debate (to me) has nothing to do with respect, just opinion.

[Lancer1997]

BTW, I hope by now you understand. I do have a lot of respect for DLS. The players & coaches that dedicate themselves to perfection should be respected. My hat is off to them. This debate (to me) has nothing to do with respect, just opinion.

That works for me.

As far as DLS in the polls, I did not mention polls specifically for the subjectivity of them all. However, DLS was good in the 80's and 90's. The Streak isnt what gave them noteriety. It was a part of it though. What happened was SoCal who is tremendously respected for football around the country called out DLS, specifically Mater Dei, a 2 time national champ via USA Today and reigning SS DI top dawg. SS D1 is equivalent to Ohio D1 and Texas 5A. Once dls beat MD they began to get recognition, but what allowed them to play MD in the first place was The Streak.

I understand how you are all family, and that is why I try not to say anything offensive, because I am a guest and respect your opinions. I just happen to disagree with what what I would call "irrational posts" although I suppose its possible I may be in the minority of that school of thought. To me, we wont know, and like I said, I would not bet against DLS, maybe all of you would. That is fine with me.

I dont seek to "convert you to fans of the evil empire" or even "to jump on the bandwagon", as I personally do not consider myself a fan. But I just figure Texas fans would have respect for a team that has accomplished so much in high school football. I mean the Mecca of High School football is Texas, so why wouldnt they want to recognize such a phenomenal achievement, or even if not, recognize that obviously DLS would be a premeir program in any state, not a 50% team as some have claimed. Supplant North Shore in another state and the same could be said for them. (I did see North Shore's state title game by the way and was impressed.)

I do realize no one cares how highly DLS is ranked, truth be told I dont care either. But I think they can go Toe to Toe as concha said, with anyone in the nation. Thats all. Earlier in my post I already said I dont put stock in polls, but DLS not being able to compete above a 50% level within a district in Texas is far more than a stretch. I know you did not say that SuperB.

So anyway, I have no ill-will toward you or your board, and respect the opinions of others. Thanks for letting me pop on over to offer my opinions, whether or not you agree with them.

This is a very good board

Edited by Lancer1997, 19 March 2004 - 03:03 PM.

[Super B]

Lancer, you are welcome here anytime. Now I know most of the threads we have here speak of teams U know nothing about, but we also talk about other thing as well. Here are a few things you might be interested in.

Check out the following boards:
Other Sports Talk
Pro & College Football Talk
Non-Football Talk

We also keep ourselves busy during the off-season with the following threads:
NCAA Tourney Scoreboard: Finals
Word Association
Favorite Websites?
Dictionary Marathon

There's more of course, but I thought U might be interested in some of those.

BTW, I used the St. Joe's example for a reason U know.

See ya tomorrow, I'm going home.

[DaPantha]

I dont think anyone (or at least FEW) are saying that DLS would not be COMPETITIVE in TX or that all of those "20 TX teams" would blow out dls everytime they played them, however what we ARE saying is that dls would not dominate TX like they do cali. If they played a TX schedule and TX playoffs, they would not have "the streak". As good as they are, TX team are real good to and COULD beat them. And even just playing a FEW TX teams, theres a good chance they could lose. They are a great football team, but we will never know if they are truly THE BEST as many proclaim.