9 replies to this topic

[Russ]

EMAIL SENT TO ME:

post by the atheist on the moment of silence thread, I figured I would send you the same message I sent him, so maybe you too can answer my simple question that not a single atheist has ever been able to answer?

of all the garbage you spewed out in your post on the thread dealing with moments of silence, I can only agree with ONE thing you said. It was when you said, "...Atheism is a non-prophet organization..." You are right, there is nothing to profit from being an atheist. Now as far all of your "intelligent speech." There is no such thing as a "former Christian." You were never a Christian...you just thought you were. Just because you went to a Christian school and went to church does not make you a Christian. If I were to don a pair of scrubs, put on a white coat and a stethoscope around my neck and walk around in a hospital, would that make me a doctor? Many people on the outside can appear to be one thing, when in reality, they are not that thing. Read Matt. 7:21-23.

Now for my next question...I have told every atheist that I have ever met, and there are many...I tend to debate atheists on a regular basis and have never met a single one that has come anywhere close to being able to outwit me, including a former professor, who had a PhD in Evolutionary Biology. My first question for him and every other atheist is a simple one. Science teaches that it is IMPOSSIBLE for something to come from nothing, so.... exactly where did that first something that lead to the "Big Bang" come from. If it is IMPOSSIBLE for something to come from nothing, then where did the very first something come from? Dont come back asking where God came from? That is not the question. As you should know, we teach that God always was. In order to be firm in your faith...and yes, I believe atheism requires faith...it is faith that there is no God. As a matter of fact, it takes a greater faith to be an atheist. Just think, if you are right, what will be lost after I die? If I am right, what will be lost after you die? I know one thing, my words from this message will be continuously resonating in your head as you burn in hell for all eternity? I am not quite sure why anyone with half a brain would be willing to take such a risk, but then nothing surprises me in today's society.

Again, I simply want to know, where did that first thing come from, since scientifically, it is IMPOSSIBLE for something to come from nothing?

MY RESPONSE:

If youR first question was concerning the "would that make me a doctor?" statment you made (cause that was the only question in the paragraph, I would say "no."

As for your 2nd paragraph, you said "as for my next question." That denotes a sense of one question being asked, yet you asked many.

I'm going to answer your whole post this way. I am not a xtian, and therefore could give two shits about anything you believe or think you believe. Sounds to me like you're just a pissed off **** that likes to spout off when others don't believe as you do. And to me, that just screams "close-minded" and "ignorance of others."

As for your biology/science question you asked in reference to the big-bang theory, with its relation to xtianity, I don't know the answer to that...and again, much less care. I am not an atheist, nor did my response to that great post denote in any way that I was an atheist. Yet at the same time, I don't believe in your god either. So your lack of questions, or overabundance of them, really didn't mean anything to me.

All I really got from your email to me was a pitiful soul questioning their own religion and trying to justify its existence by bringing down the existence of others' religion/s.

You apparently have issues. Enjoy them, and try not to share so much of those issues with others.

*laughs*

[Russ]

HE WROTE BACK:
wow...such an attempt at intelligence with results of ignorance. I love how when someone makes an intelligent decision, they are close-minded. It is exactly like the saying goes...one can be so open-minded that all of their brains will fall out. I prefer to look at myself as one who is smart enough to see the differences between religions and one who is smart enough to justify the continuity and consistency of one versus the others. I could say you are close-minded for totally rejecting Christianity or xianity as you choose to use...and yes I know that the x represents Christ.
I am not angry about anything. I am concerned. No matter how much someone annoys me, the thought of anyone suffering in hell is more than I would like to accept. What amazes me is that when a Christian shares their beliefs, it is out of concern for others. If you were about to drive away in your car and I knew your brakes had been cut, would you want me to tell you? I look at Christianity the same way. I know what the end results are...I am simply trying to warn others. Now, you can choose to reject those warnings and risk the end. Just like if I had warned you about the brakes, you could have rejected my warning and taken your chances on the brakes still working. In the end, their is a result. Thanks for your response. You can send me more rhetoric that justifies why you reject my Christian beliefs and that is fine if that will make you feel better. I will leave you alone now, unless you ask for a specific explanation of anything.

I'm just going to respond here:

I'd like to know where he sees the differences between religions in the first letter, and where his open-mind is. Nothing this person has said yet really jives with this. This person's concern for non-xtians suffering in hell is just plain stupid...if one doesn't believe in hell, one is not concerned with what they don't believe in. Is this dipshit really this stupid? And would a non-xtian NOT tell you that your brakes had been cut? Is he so biased to think that only being a xtian will give you moral decency?

What a dipshit.

[Texas High School football]

The religious are the first to get deeply angry when you question their beliefs, atheists come to expect it and are quite aware that they are in the minority. Being in Texas where there is atleast 2 or 3 churches on every street in the big city (I just love their chicken, oh wait I meant houses of worship) I was once lost in the confusion of religion, but then I found myself and questioned the inconsistancies of religion. Why was speaking in tounges acceptable by some but not others? Where in the Bible does it say that Polygamy is wrong? Why is it that Holloween is always talked about in scary terms by ultra-fundamentalists and not by others? Why are there so many different forms of Christianity? This was when I wandered off, too many preachers having sex with the crurch going women, too much gay hate from guys like Jimmy Swaggart, too much holy water was being sold by Robert Tilton, and too many people were falling down when Benny Hinn touched them. And what about Peter Popoff? Why is it that people take this stuff so seriously? And then I thought about it. People don't choose their religion... They are born into it. There are notable exceptions, but for most it is something that they inherit. This is why Sunday school programs are needed. Without them, church would be boring to the little children.

[Russ]

I will go a step further. For me (actually not an atheist), the deep anger when questioned seems geared really towards just a few religions. Bear with me here. When I look at xtian, Islamic, and Jewish faiths (all stemming from the same initial god), that is where i see the most anger dwell. I haven't met any Hindus, Buddists, atheists, pagans (to include Wiccan and other forms), etc. really get mad and have to defend what they believe in when questioned. Sure, if pushed back against a wall, the lesser known religion-oriented folks will stand up for what they believe in and argue. But outside of the 3 religions first mentioned, I just don't see the anger and hate come even close to that degree of angered misery.

I have always been in the mindset that if a person has to defend what they believe in with tons of repeated rhetoric, they tend to veer away from trying to convince others....seems more like they are doing everything they can to convince themselves (as in they have doubt).

The religious are the first to get deeply angry when you question their beliefs, atheists come to expect it and are quite aware that they are in the minority. Being in Texas where there is atleast 2 or 3 churches on every street in the big city (I just love their chicken, oh wait I meant houses of worship) I was once lost in the confusion of religion, but then I found myself and questioned the inconsistancies of religion. Why was speaking in tounges acceptable by some but not others? Where in the Bible does it say that Polygamy is wrong? Why is it that Holloween is always talked about in scary terms by ultra-fundamentalists and not by others? Why are there so many different forms of Christianity? This was when I wandered off, too many preachers having sex with the crurch going women, too much gay hate from guys like Jimmy Swaggart, too much holy water was being sold by Robert Tilton, and too many people were falling down when Benny Hinn touched them. And what about Peter Popoff? Why is it that people take this stuff so seriously? And then I thought about it. People don't choose their religion... They are born into it. There are notable exceptions, but for most it is something that they inherit. This is why Sunday school programs are needed. Without them, church would be boring to the little children.

[Texas High School football]

I have always been in the mindset that if a person has to defend what they believe in with tons of repeated rhetoric, they tend to veer away from trying to convince others....seems more like they are doing everything they can to convince themselves (as in they have doubt).

Kind of like the most hompohbic people tend to be closeted homsexuals?

Hmm, Christopher Hitchens had written something about the 3 sand religions always being at each others throats. And with a monotheistic religion, it seems easier to get angry when your religion was built upon the killing and forced confession of non-christians. Muslims are guilty and there are Jews who almost never criticize anything bad that Israel does.

[Grant]

This is why more and more people are actually turning away from Christianity. People are so deeply offended when someone questions their Christian faith, that they feel that lashing out is the only way to justify themselves. I myself am not a Christian, and I try to avoid things like this. I carry a deep respect for all practitioners of all religions. I don't factor it in at all to friendships, relationships, and things of that nature. Sure, I may disagree, but that doesn't mean I carry some kind of grude or hatred to those people.

[viking4life]

Y'all all seem to be ignorant of the either side and are twisting the opposite to fit their argument.

Y'all are all doing that (I think Russ had done it to a lesser extent. Texas High School Football certainly the worst.)

[WestlakeTech]

The religious are the first to get deeply angry when you question their beliefs, atheists come to expect it and are quite aware that they are in the minority. Being in Texas where there is atleast 2 or 3 churches on every street in the big city (I just love their chicken, oh wait I meant houses of worship) I was once lost in the confusion of religion, but then I found myself and questioned the inconsistancies of religion. Why was speaking in tounges acceptable by some but not others? Where in the Bible does it say that Polygamy is wrong? Why is it that Holloween is always talked about in scary terms by ultra-fundamentalists and not by others? Why are there so many different forms of Christianity? This was when I wandered off, too many preachers having sex with the crurch going women, too much gay hate from guys like Jimmy Swaggart, too much holy water was being sold by Robert Tilton, and too many people were falling down when Benny Hinn touched them. And what about Peter Popoff? Why is it that people take this stuff so seriously? And then I thought about it. People don't choose their religion... They are born into it. There are notable exceptions, but for most it is something that they inherit. This is why Sunday school programs are needed. Without them, church would be boring to the little children.

(Yeah, I'm a Christian. Most of y'all know that already. Just hear me out)

"The religious are the first to get deeply angry when you question their beliefs"

Often, yes, but not always. It really depends on who you're talking to. Personally I try to keep my cool when talking to athiests and other non-christians. But really, this is our Everything and I don't think it's fair to blame us for taking it seriously. However, no one should be arguing w/you about it or trying to force their Christian beliefs on you (if any of them have a problem w/that, they can take it up w/me).

Why was speaking in tounges acceptable by some but not others?
Why are there so many different forms of Christianity?

Personally, I've never gone to a church that wasn't ok with speaking in tongues. I have read the New Testament including the parts talking about speaking in tongues, and I can't see why anyone would see it as a bad thing. But I'm still going to answer your question as best I can. Answer being simply this...

You will never see everyone agree on anything, esp when it comes to religion. Some will be ok with tongues, some not. Some will be ok with communion, some not. It's practically politics. Pick 1 topic on tab for the upcoming president, democrats and republicans will probably not agree. Similar issue for the different branches of Christianity...
Officially, try as I might, I have not been able to find the definite differences in all the churches, but it usually seems that the disagreements are over things NOT specified in The Bible. Things like conservative dress and types of worship and similar issues. And you can use the political comparison again. Democrats and Republicans may disagree, but we're all Americans. We share a legitimate love for this country and our lives here. Just like how Christians, be they Mormans, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, or Non-denominational, all share our legitimate love for Christ and all of his ways.

Where in the Bible does it say that Polygamy is wrong?

Honestly, I can't find one place. You'll actually find many biblical figures with multiple wives. This is likely just frowned upon because times change. Women nolonger accept being 'one of" his wives and really haven't for centuries. Did anyone tell you that polygamy was against Christianity? I'd tend to ASSUME that God would prefer one man with one woman, but it'll be a long time before I'm 100% sure of his views on the subject.

Why is it that Holloween is always talked about in scary terms by ultra-fundamentalists and not by others?

Halloween had its less-than-perfect origins, no doubt, especially by Christian standards. But nowadays it's as simple as dressing up and eating sweets. Nothing more or less is promoted by it, and anyone who thinks otherwise his fooling himself.

This was when I wandered off, too many preachers having sex with the crurch going women, too much gay hate from guys like Jimmy Swaggart, too much holy water was being sold by Robert Tilton, and too many people were falling down when Benny Hinn touched them. And what about Peter Popoff?

What does it take to become a preacher? Inspiring messages and a biblical basis for them. Anyone can make an inspiring message, football coaches do it all the time. And with a book as big as the Bible, there's plenty to chose from. Being a preacher does not make you any more or better Christian than the guy who sits in the back row (heck, "Going to church making you a Christian about as much as standing in a garage makes you a car"). I would even say that a Christian who has non-marital sex shouldn't even disgrace Christ by calling himself one of His followers.

Gay Hate... no true Christian would hate anyone or body. Sure, homosexuality is forbidden by God himself (*again, this is the Christian belief). But the Bible says that hate is murder, and murder is pointed out as a sin in the 6th commandment. Simple as putting 2 and 4 together.

Tilton selling Holy Water. Well, that's something that does get me. I think Holy Water should be given, not sold. Tilton can find an actual JOB to pay his bills if that's the case.

Benny Hinn. You know, of all the people you mentioned, he's the only one I've heard of (and actually seen in person). Well, when he touches those people and they fall, what's causing them to fall is the Holy Spirit filling them. It seems ridiculous to some, but it's what we believe and it makes perfect sense to us.

Popoff... never heard of him up until now.

Either way you slice it, there's only one person that really matters in this religion and that's, of course, Jesus. As for those of us who aren't Jesus, we're imperfect and we always will be. And there will be some of us who wear Christian masks and then take them off as we please. But a true Christian will not hate, will not try to force our beliefs on you, and will not have sex outside of marriage.

Why is it that people take this stuff so seriously?
Well for one thing, as I stated above, it's our Everything. But what makes it our everything? We chose to. For some (occasionally extraordinary) reason, which varies with every single person, we chose to hand our lives over to our beliefs. There's no real clear-cut and definite answer for that and I wish I could be more helpful w/that question, but I'm afraid I can't.

And then I thought about it. People don't choose their religion... They are born into it. There are notable exceptions, but for most it is something that they inherit.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think it's hard to say "in general" even, 'cause there's never really a national census saying "Did you pick your religion, or did your parents?" Yes, often kids only go to church because they're being dragged, kicking and screaming, by mom and dad. But after a while, no one forces them to go, mom and dad can't make them. If they've decided by that point that Christianity (or whatever other religion) is something they want to continue with, they will. If not, they can, and many do, drop it. Plus, see the christian/garage quote above. Church doesn't make anyone a Christian, their relationship with God does.

This is why Sunday school programs are needed. Without them, church would be boring to the little children.

Haha. Actually quite true. Thing about Sunday School is, it's practically day-care for a little while on Sunday mornings, but there's not always a lot of religious learning going on there. Teaching, yeah, but usually when my dad asked me what I learned in Sunday School, I wasn't able to tell him 'cause I just didn't retain the information.

****************************

Russ, I'm sorry that Christian guy got on on your nerves. He probably said some things he shouldn't have said, and arguing w/you in the first place wasn't very considerate in the first place. My request of you is not to base us all on people like that, we're really not all quite so bad. While I don't think moral decency had anything to do with his car brakes metaphor, I do think he's going about the situation all wrong. I half don't blame him, half do. He's TRYING to fulflill his duties as a Christian by 1. trying to get you to become one, 2. preventing you from Hell. But nothing he's saying gives any slightest motivation to hand your life over to Christ, except maybe the Hell part, but as you said, that holds little water for someone who doesn't believe in Hell. Do I want you to become a Christian, yeah, but I'm not going to ask you to if you don't want to, nor will I try to force you to, or tell you you have to. If you want Jesus, you'll find him (or visa versa).
So again, I'm sorry he upset you.

*****************************

I garuantee nothing that I've said. I can't be 100% sure of anything for quite some time. This post reflects the Christian Belief and nothing else. I'm not saying any of this is fact (as far as anyone else is concerned anyway) and please don't argue w/me about anything this says. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything, just explain things from my personal Christian perspective.

Now, if you have any non-derogatory questions in regards to anything I've said... feel free to ask (here or PM...)

[Russ]

Westlake...one of your better posts. Respected. Although you have your beliefs, you kept yourself humble and somewhat "out there." But that's ok; the honesty of your unknowingness of a few things is something I respect. You didn't speak in absolutes; again, very good.

Hopefully the hardcores that breathe it down others' necks will follow your example.

Well done.

(Yeah, I'm a Christian. Most of y'all know that already. Just hear me out)

"The religious are the first to get deeply angry when you question their beliefs"

Often, yes, but not always. It really depends on who you're talking to. Personally I try to keep my cool when talking to athiests and other non-christians. But really, this is our Everything and I don't think it's fair to blame us for taking it seriously. However, no one should be arguing w/you about it or trying to force their Christian beliefs on you (if any of them have a problem w/that, they can take it up w/me).

Why was speaking in tounges acceptable by some but not others?
Why are there so many different forms of Christianity?

Personally, I've never gone to a church that wasn't ok with speaking in tongues. I have read the New Testament including the parts talking about speaking in tongues, and I can't see why anyone would see it as a bad thing. But I'm still going to answer your question as best I can. Answer being simply this...

You will never see everyone agree on anything, esp when it comes to religion. Some will be ok with tongues, some not. Some will be ok with communion, some not. It's practically politics. Pick 1 topic on tab for the upcoming president, democrats and republicans will probably not agree. Similar issue for the different branches of Christianity...
Officially, try as I might, I have not been able to find the definite differences in all the churches, but it usually seems that the disagreements are over things NOT specified in The Bible. Things like conservative dress and types of worship and similar issues. And you can use the political comparison again. Democrats and Republicans may disagree, but we're all Americans. We share a legitimate love for this country and our lives here. Just like how Christians, be they Mormans, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, or Non-denominational, all share our legitimate love for Christ and all of his ways.

Where in the Bible does it say that Polygamy is wrong?

Honestly, I can't find one place. You'll actually find many biblical figures with multiple wives. This is likely just frowned upon because times change. Women nolonger accept being 'one of" his wives and really haven't for centuries. Did anyone tell you that polygamy was against Christianity? I'd tend to ASSUME that God would prefer one man with one woman, but it'll be a long time before I'm 100% sure of his views on the subject.

Why is it that Holloween is always talked about in scary terms by ultra-fundamentalists and not by others?

Halloween had its less-than-perfect origins, no doubt, especially by Christian standards. But nowadays it's as simple as dressing up and eating sweets. Nothing more or less is promoted by it, and anyone who thinks otherwise his fooling himself.

This was when I wandered off, too many preachers having sex with the crurch going women, too much gay hate from guys like Jimmy Swaggart, too much holy water was being sold by Robert Tilton, and too many people were falling down when Benny Hinn touched them. And what about Peter Popoff?

What does it take to become a preacher? Inspiring messages and a biblical basis for them. Anyone can make an inspiring message, football coaches do it all the time. And with a book as big as the Bible, there's plenty to chose from. Being a preacher does not make you any more or better Christian than the guy who sits in the back row (heck, "Going to church making you a Christian about as much as standing in a garage makes you a car"). I would even say that a Christian who has non-marital sex shouldn't even disgrace Christ by calling himself one of His followers.

Gay Hate... no true Christian would hate anyone or body. Sure, homosexuality is forbidden by God himself (*again, this is the Christian belief). But the Bible says that hate is murder, and murder is pointed out as a sin in the 6th commandment. Simple as putting 2 and 4 together.

Tilton selling Holy Water. Well, that's something that does get me. I think Holy Water should be given, not sold. Tilton can find an actual JOB to pay his bills if that's the case.

Benny Hinn. You know, of all the people you mentioned, he's the only one I've heard of (and actually seen in person). Well, when he touches those people and they fall, what's causing them to fall is the Holy Spirit filling them. It seems ridiculous to some, but it's what we believe and it makes perfect sense to us.

Popoff... never heard of him up until now.

Either way you slice it, there's only one person that really matters in this religion and that's, of course, Jesus. As for those of us who aren't Jesus, we're imperfect and we always will be. And there will be some of us who wear Christian masks and then take them off as we please. But a true Christian will not hate, will not try to force our beliefs on you, and will not have sex outside of marriage.

Why is it that people take this stuff so seriously?
Well for one thing, as I stated above, it's our Everything. But what makes it our everything? We chose to. For some (occasionally extraordinary) reason, which varies with every single person, we chose to hand our lives over to our beliefs. There's no real clear-cut and definite answer for that and I wish I could be more helpful w/that question, but I'm afraid I can't.

And then I thought about it. People don't choose their religion... They are born into it. There are notable exceptions, but for most it is something that they inherit.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think it's hard to say "in general" even, 'cause there's never really a national census saying "Did you pick your religion, or did your parents?" Yes, often kids only go to church because they're being dragged, kicking and screaming, by mom and dad. But after a while, no one forces them to go, mom and dad can't make them. If they've decided by that point that Christianity (or whatever other religion) is something they want to continue with, they will. If not, they can, and many do, drop it. Plus, see the christian/garage quote above. Church doesn't make anyone a Christian, their relationship with God does.

This is why Sunday school programs are needed. Without them, church would be boring to the little children.

Haha. Actually quite true. Thing about Sunday School is, it's practically day-care for a little while on Sunday mornings, but there's not always a lot of religious learning going on there. Teaching, yeah, but usually when my dad asked me what I learned in Sunday School, I wasn't able to tell him 'cause I just didn't retain the information.

****************************

Russ, I'm sorry that Christian guy got on on your nerves. He probably said some things he shouldn't have said, and arguing w/you in the first place wasn't very considerate in the first place. My request of you is not to base us all on people like that, we're really not all quite so bad. While I don't think moral decency had anything to do with his car brakes metaphor, I do think he's going about the situation all wrong. I half don't blame him, half do. He's TRYING to fulflill his duties as a Christian by 1. trying to get you to become one, 2. preventing you from Hell. But nothing he's saying gives any slightest motivation to hand your life over to Christ, except maybe the Hell part, but as you said, that holds little water for someone who doesn't believe in Hell. Do I want you to become a Christian, yeah, but I'm not going to ask you to if you don't want to, nor will I try to force you to, or tell you you have to. If you want Jesus, you'll find him (or visa versa).
So again, I'm sorry he upset you.

*****************************

I garuantee nothing that I've said. I can't be 100% sure of anything for quite some time. This post reflects the Christian Belief and nothing else. I'm not saying any of this is fact (as far as anyone else is concerned anyway) and please don't argue w/me about anything this says. I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything, just explain things from my personal Christian perspective.

Now, if you have any non-derogatory questions in regards to anything I've said... feel free to ask (here or PM...)

[Texas High School football]

Westlake...one of your better posts. Respected. Although you have your beliefs, you kept yourself humble and somewhat "out there." But that's ok; the honesty of your unknowingness of a few things is something I respect. You didn't speak in absolutes; again, very good.

Hopefully the hardcores that breathe it down others' necks will follow your example.

Well done.

Yes, wasn't as kooky as what I have been getting. You sound very moderate, possibly "lukewarm".

A lot of fundamentalists idiot christians always use that lukewarm verse to turn Christians to a personal mission to be against everybody that disagrees with them. I attack preachers because of the way that the followers always defend them when they can't follow their own advice. I point piont out the evolution of Christianity because Christianity always makes itself out to be flawless and perfect. If it truely was, why all of the changes from the original product?

The ultimate beauty of Christianity has been its ability to keep people from reading the Bible. Originally it was the Vatican that did this by telling the followers that only the priest could interpret the origonal scriptures, today Protestants do the same by saying "context". They love ignoring the anti wealth stance of Jesus, but they love to continue the anti homosexual laws. Today, you see arguments over what Scripture A is really saying, and how it applies today.

Christianity is very divided, and it is important to point out that there are gay Christian churches, snake handling christian churches, and even christian churches based on race. Christianity, if perfect and if truely aligned with "god" would not have these divisions.

The same could be said about atheism, but atheism isn't trying to take the athoritarian position and using it to tell people what to do. Atheism doesn't protest life saving science, atheism doesn't protest gay adoption, atheism does not protest pornography. The Atheist looks at and examines each and every stance and why it is beneficial or detrimental before forming an opinion. Most Christians can't afford to go against the preacher or the congregation's opinion as he will surely lose friends, so the church position is usualy adopted.